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Post by CowboysDad on May 12, 2015 20:10:46 GMT -6
As pastors would you officiate a marriage in which at least one person has been married previously?
If the person's former spouse has died?
If the person was abandoned by a believer?
If the person was abandoned by an unbeliever?
If the person's former spouse committed adultery?
If the person's former spouse committed any sexual sin?
If the person's former spouse is incarcerated for life?
If a couple has children living with them in the home?
If the person admits that his previous divorce was sin?
I'd love to read your biblical and practical reasoning on this topic.
- Daniel
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Post by brianwagner on May 20, 2015 7:56:45 GMT -6
Hi Daniel - I need to parse your initial question a little. I personally believe "married previously" from the world's perspective (and adopted by too many in the church) means the marriage was ended by divorce only. It may be as far as they are concerned, but not God. This was the main point of Jesus warning in Matt 19, that divorce alone doesn't end the marriage bond, otherwise why warn about committing adultery against your spouse after the legal divorce has taken place. I also believe that adultery by itself does not end the marriage bond in God's eyes.
My view is that death clearly ends the marriage bond, but also divorce and remarriage (not so clearly, and thus I am not dogmatic) ends the marriage bond in God's eyes also. I believe when God commanded against returning to the first spouse in Deut 24, He was indicating the first bond had truly ended in His view. And when Jesus said, "Let not man put asunder," He was not just thinking death could end the marriage bond. When Jesus confirmed to the Samaritan woman, "You have no husband", (John 4) He recognized that the first five bonds were truly broken, and its hard to imagine that they all had died! :-) And when Paul says, "Seek not to be loosed", he was not thinking of through death only.
I have a pre-requisite list of questions I ask for weddings I will perform... but if those things are met, which include some of this issues in your questions below, here are my answers -
If the person's former spouse has died? YES
If the person was abandoned by a believer? NO
If the person was abandoned by an unbeliever? NO
If the person's former spouse committed adultery? NO
If the person's former spouse committed any sexual sin? NO
If the person's former spouse is incarcerated for life? NO
If a couple has children living with them in the home? YES, assuming you are not talking about the children's wedding. :-)
If the person admits that his previous divorce was sin? NO, even if their spouse has since remarried, since I don't believe the state or the church form the marriage bond in God's eyes. They only recognize it on their terms. And the church's recognition of a new marriage bond can be given through membership covenant affirmation.
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Post by disciple6640 on Feb 24, 2016 17:00:00 GMT -6
I was really interested in your line of thought Brian and wanted to ask you a question.
It appears to me that your response gave many examples that concluded that the "marriage bond" had been broken in some instances outside of death.
If this is the case then why is it that you answered "no" to all of the questions other then the spouse being dead? It seems contradictory; if the marriage bond is broken, then why would you feel the person should not be remarried?
I ask this because I struggle with this topic; on one hand, I completely agree that marriage is a serious matter and it should always be til death do us part, but on the other hand, if there was adultery or if as in 1 Corinthians 7 if there is an unbelieving spouse who leaves then what I read in Scripture leads me to believe that the bond is broken at that point. I believe If the bond is broken then the non offending party should be free to remarry.
For example; if an unbelieving man is cheating on his wife, decides that he no longer wants to be married to a believing woman and leaves her through no fault of her own and divorces her. I feel that from what I read that she is now free from her bond to that man and should be free to remarry. I can't imagine that she should be punished for the rest of her life by having to remain single. This doesn't sound right to me, this doesn't sound like justice, but I admit this is a feeling and may not be adequately backed up in Scripture.
So the real question to me is if the marriage bond is broken, outside of death as the reason, is the non offending party free to remarry?
My answer is yes they can remarry based on
Matthew 19:9 "And I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”
It clearly says that if you marry another you commit adultery except in the case of adultery which gives the logical conclusion that you would not be committing adultery if you yourself are divorced because of adultery.
2nd would be based on 1 Corinthians 7:15 "But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. A brother or a sister is not bound in such cases. God has called you to live in peace."
So it is clear that the bond can be broken; it is clear that you would not be committing adultery, but I admit it is not clear that you may remarry. I feel however that it still makes a case that you should be able too in these extreme and rare cases.
Would love to hear your thoughts and any others.
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Post by brianwagner on Feb 24, 2016 19:57:44 GMT -6
Hi Disciple 6640! I am sometimes not too clear with my answers, so I hope this helps. :-) The original questions were about what wedding ceremonies I would conduct... I mentioned quickly at the end that I do not believe that the state or the church forms the marriage bond in God's eyes. So I do not believe my officiating a wedding causes that man and woman become bonded in God's eyes. What forms the bond is the three things Jesus mentioned that must be completed... leaving father and mother, being joined [making a lifetime heart commitment], and becoming one flesh. The wedding certainly helps with the second step.
So I also believe just having a license does not make a couple married in God's eyes! Good teachers of Scripture disagree on what breaks the marriage bond. All agree death does. The all should agree that Jesus and Paul both command against taking any initiative to break the marriage bond. Jesus commanded - Matt 19:6, "What God hath joined together let not man separate." Paul commanded - 1Cor 7:10-13 "Now to the married I command, [yet] not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from [her] husband. But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to [her] husband. And a husband is not to divorce [his] wife. But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him." These are clear expressions of God's will and to go against these commands would clearly be sin.
The acts of adultery or divorce, by themselves, do not break the marriage bond that God sees. Neither does desertion. The fornication exception clause in Matt 5 and 19 was a term for sexual immorality, for Jewish law perspective, that happens before a true marriage bond takes place (like Joseph wanting to divorce Mary, "his wife", before they had completed forming the marriage bond, because she was discovered as being pregnant). The word "bound" in 1Cor 7:15, means "service". A deserted wife is not obligated to serve her husband if he should return temporarily with no repentance or intention of remaining.
So my view is that divorce and remarriage together breaks the original marriage bond. In my view the unbeliever, or disobedient believer, who divorces his/her spouse and then remarries, has broken the bond in God's eyes. The deserted divorced believer is free to remarry. If the unbeliever, or disobedient believer, who caused the divorce does not get remarried, the believing spouse should remain in their unmarried (legal status) hoping and praying to be reconciled to their spouse (still married to them in God's eyes).
There are other passages you may wish to discuss. Let me know. I hope this helps.
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Post by disciple6640 on Feb 25, 2016 10:47:07 GMT -6
@brian Wagner
Thank you for your response. Yes this certainly cleared things up for me. I really enjoyed your insight on this as well and you gave me a lot to think about and research. I Think I may have misunderstood the original question by Dr. Daniel in the first place.
This subject is so hard for me because my feelings tend to get in the way. Praise the Lord that I myself have been in an awesome marriage for almost 21 years to the bride of my youth, but I have seen so many suffer in this and it breaks my heart. I wish all could see God's wisdom and strive to love, cherish, and please their spouse in a sacrificial way, as this is the way to their own happiness as well.
I agreed with you that God wants none to get divorced ever and that the Lord can heal any marriage in any affliction if the parties are willing to die to self and follow Him. Thanks again Brian.
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Post by brianwagner on Feb 26, 2016 6:48:54 GMT -6
It is so heart breaking to see all the difficulty, pain and destruction caused by divorce and remarriage. I am glad my explanation of Scriptures on this difficult subject was of some help, Chris!
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Post by CowboysDad on Feb 27, 2016 0:28:11 GMT -6
We often overlook Luke 16:18, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery." Check! ... "and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery." Yikes, does it really say that? It most certainly does! But what if the wife is innocent (and that is the implication), then must she remain unmarried? What does the Bible suggest here? Would that be unfair? What does the Bible say?
Also note that Paul in Romans 7 and 1 Corinthians 7, Mark in Mark 10, and Luke in Luke 16 do not mention adultery as grounds for divorce or remarriage. An oversight? In fact, Matthew doesn't technically mention adultery either as Brian has pointed out. It reads, "sexual immorality." Does this expression intimate adultery or should we understand this expression in light of the Jewish author, the Jewish audience and the Jewish culture (and its marriage customs) so fundamental to the reading of the book of Matthew. More food for thought!
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Post by brianwagner on Feb 29, 2016 15:53:27 GMT -6
Hey Daniel! Not sure you agree... but I think you do, at least pointing out that divorce is warned against in both the Mark and Luke passages because remarriage causes adultery to take place, meaning that in God's eyes the divorce alone, by itself, had not ended the first marriage. I know it might be a stretch, but I assume the woman divorced is "caused" to commit adultery by her remarriage because he first husband evidently had not been remarried himself yet. I know Rom 7 seems to through a monkey wrench into my view that both divorce and remarriage end the first bond and free the remaining party to remarry, but I take Paul as saying "as long as her husband is alive" to me "as long as she has a husband and he is alive."
If the first bond is truly broken then she no longer has a husband, as in the case of death! When the woman at the well said, "I have no husband", Jesus confirmed her words, which makes it hard to believe all five are dead! Also God's command to Israel that a divorcee that remarried is forbidden to return to the first spouse (Deut 24) also points to the first bond being over.
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Post by CowboysDad on Feb 29, 2016 23:32:19 GMT -6
Brian, I try not to overthink it. When Jesus said, "You have well said, 'I have no husband,'" he is simply saying, "You're right! You aren't married to the man that you're living with right now." I don't think he's trying to teach about divorce and remarriage--only that even a woman with a checkered past (and present) can be a true worshipper of the Father. As far as Paul's teaching in Romans 7, the analogy is built around a clean break. Only when you are dead to the law are you then free to marry Christ. Likewise, when your husband dies, you are free to marry another, but not until. There is not a half-way relationship to the Law. You must die. There's no half-way relationship with a past husband. He must die. It's an unpopular position that makes me few friends, but I take Romans 7 and 1 Corinthians 7 to say that when your ex-husband (or ex-wife) dies, then and only then are you free to remarry. Jesus said, "All cannot accept this saying" (Matt. 19:11), and I find myself more and more alone on the position that death alone frees you to remarry. People will say, "But doesn't God want me to be happy? Don't you realize that you are relegating me to a lifetime of loneliness?" To which I try to find a kind and tactful way to point out that I am only the messenger, and that the God who loves them can sustain them in singleness as well as in marriage.
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Post by brianwagner on Mar 2, 2016 8:40:52 GMT -6
Thanks for the response Daniel! "Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” I think you are not seeing the emphasis on "no husband" that Jesus is making. And Paul did not say - "Only" dead to the law makes you free to marry Christ, or that "only" death causes the marriage to end. If anything it is being married to Christ that causes me to be dead to the law, even though the law is still very much alive and influential, but I must treat it as "dead to me" or at least only respond to it as my new "husband" tells me to.
If you do not want to keep interacting about this, I understand. I just think that "Let not man put asunder" means more than just "Don't kill your spouse"! It implies strongly that man can end the marriage bond another way, and Deut 24 seems to confirm that God sees the first bond as completely broken by divorce and remarriage.
I am not dogmatic in this position and I can appreciate yours... but the practical application comes pastorally when dealing with those who have experienced divorce and remarriage who are recognized members of a local congregation. If they are living in adultery, shouldn't they be put under discipline? If their second marriage is not living in adultery, then aren't you recognizing that the first spouses are truly NOT their spouses anymore, otherwise these new marriages would be "adulterous" affairs, or at least polygamy. If it polygamy, started by an act of adultery, shouldn't the act be confessed as such before service in the body publicly takes place, and shouldn't responsibility to the other "spouse" in the polygamy be maintained?
I am not suggesting changing one's position on how divorce and remarriage truly breaks the first bond just to avoid these practical questions that are usually not addressed by the other position, but I do think every position concerning divorce and remarriage in the local church needs to flesh out how it is practically confirmed in the public service of believers in that testimony.
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Post by CowboysDad on Mar 7, 2016 22:56:14 GMT -6
Brian, back from a camping trip...
Having looked again at John 4, I still see it as saying that although Jesus knows she is living in a sinful relationship and that she has had a checkered past, yet she will receive eternal life by believing in the Messiah--"I who speak to you am He." This is one of many stories in this gospel that emphasize the need for belief (cf. 20:31). What am I missing?
And regarding Romans 7, yes, I agree that the Law is holy, but a death has caused separation from the Law--my death--thus, I am free to marry another--Jesus Christ. In the same way, when a death has caused separation in a marriage, then I am free to marry another. That's what is says, right?
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Post by brianwagner on Mar 11, 2016 15:58:43 GMT -6
Daniel... Busy semester here! :-) John 4:17-18 - 17The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband: 18For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
It seems to me that Jesus is saying firmly... "she has no husband". So is that because the fifth one died, or all five had died, or she still is married in God's eyes to the first, but Jesus was speaking from the world's perspective of divorce ending marriage? I just think "Let not man put asunder" implies strongly that something else besides death can end the marriage bond in God's eyes. And in Rom 7 Paul is not saying "only" death does. But hey... I could be wrong, and I would like to hear your practical application to the questions I raised on church discipline! Thanks.
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Post by CowboysDad on Mar 14, 2016 23:23:09 GMT -6
Desktop is dead and laptop wasn't working either for several days, but now I am limping along again, waiting to be back on both feet by Wednesday when a new power supply arrives in the mail....  Oh, how our sin clutters the landscape of biblical clarity! It is clear that God's desire is for one man to marry one woman and that they should remain pure in marriage and faithful to their marriage until death separates them. Unfaithfulness prior to marriage is fornication. Unfaithfulness subsequent to marriage is adultery. Romans 7 and 1 Corinthians 7 teach that death ends the marriage. On these points hopefully we can all agree. To remarry prior to the death of a spouse (in my reading of Scripture) is not permitted, though I recognize that most do accept adultery as a grounds for divorce based on the passages in Matthew. Otherwise, remarriage constitutes an act of adultery. How do I treat those who have made vows in remarriage? I don't ask them to break their subsequent vow(s). I teach them that they must remain faithful to their present vow, confess any wrongdoing based upon their careful reading of Scripture, and serve God covered by his grace. I rarely if ever meet a remarried man or woman who doesn't claim that her first husband or his first wife had been unfaithful in some way, thus allowing for the freedom to remarry in their thinking. Sadly, the whole thing has become so convoluted, yet I spend my days seeking to strengthen present marriages, whether they are the first or fourth. Thus, for me it is a matter of grace. I believe that those who have remarried have dishonored the Lord, though I suppose that they would conclude of me that I am too rigid in my reading of Scripture, and so we are at an honorable standoff in most cases. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound! But I do fear that as a church we have lost spiritual power and intimacy with our Lord by an attitude toward remarriage that is far too dismissive of Scripture (regardless of what one's final understanding of it might be on this topic) and far too eager to gravitate to theological conclusions that align with our personal desires. |
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