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Post by brianwagner on May 25, 2015 15:11:42 GMT -6
Ok I am stumped on this one. I just do not know what point Moses is trying to make (or God) by saying - "Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day." Then he doesn't give an explanation of why they have this problem or how to fix the problem. Is it possible that this may be one of those cases where we have an interrogative, rhetorical question even though there is no interrogative ה in the text? "Has not the LORD given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day?" But maybe there is another explanation of why this negative declaration to Israel was given! I'm open to suggestions.
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Post by CowboysDad on May 25, 2015 23:51:51 GMT -6
Hmmmmm ...
The phrase עַד הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה could rightly be translated "UNTIL today."
They saw, but did not see UNTIL then.
They were largely in unbelief during the 40 years in the wilderness, but now they get it!
Sounds like Jesus ...
Matt. 13:13, "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
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Post by brianwagner on May 26, 2015 17:08:55 GMT -6
The Message paraphrase agrees with your suggestion. And many commentators do connect this verse with the judicial hardening of Israel mentioned in Jesus' words or by Paul (cf. Rom 11:8). But the context in Deut 29 does not seem to fit. It is the moment when Moses is going to ask Israel to reaffirm the covenant. Why say such a thing about God's lack of grace in their lives? And then, maybe it is God Himself speaking - see verses 5-6. But why would He say such a thing about His lack of graciousness towards them?
I still wonder if you think the rhetorical question is possible. See Gesenius 150.a (e.g. Jonah 4:11, Ex 8:22 [Eng vs 26]). It brings excellent resolution in my thinking and honors the merciful character of God better.
The "until today" phrase is a monkey wrench in the whole matter, for maybe this verse is an editorial comment by a future prophetic author, like Joshua during the time of the Judges, or Hilkiah during the revival of Josiah, or Ezra during the revival of the returnees, reworking Deuteronomy for a new generation of Israel. This phrase is found also in Deut. 2:22, 3:14, 10:8, 11:14, and 34:6 and appears to point to editorial comments in those contexts.
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Post by CowboysDad on May 31, 2015 22:46:43 GMT -6
Good question! But I think in general I don't want to translate as a question in the absence of a marker unless the passage requires such. The examples in Jonah and Exodus cannot within reason be translated any other way but as a question even without a marker, but the passage in Deuteronomy is different. It does not immediately suggest a question, and in the absence of a marker I'm not eager to translate it as a question. I'm inclined to look for the meaning as a declarative rather than as an interrogative. Just me!
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Post by brianwagner on Jun 1, 2015 12:41:22 GMT -6
But why would God (or Moses) declare that God has not given them an understanding heart to this day, especially on the a day He wants them to make the reasonable decision of recommitting to His covenant? I can not come up with a reasonable motive for such a declaration, whether its a rebuke, declaration of divine rejection, explanation for why they have been so stiff-necked so far... or whatever. These ideas just do not seem as satisfying as this declaration being God's encouraging words before calling them to recommit to His covenant - "Have I not given you an understanding heart through all the signs I have shown you? Now recommit yourselves to my covenant!"
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Post by CowboysDad on Jun 3, 2015 15:34:39 GMT -6
Regarding interpretation, I'm not uncomfortable in reading Deut. 29:4 as a statement that despite all that they had seen, the Israelites remained in a state of general unbelief during their 40 years in the wilderness, but now, today, encamped upon the plains of Moab with the prize before them, the LORD says, "I peeled back the doubt which you initiated 40 years ago and have given you new eyes to see, and so now that you see clearly, commit yourselves to me going forward."
Regarding the grammar, I'm not sure that Hebrew is much different from English in the use of written questions. Sometimes questions are implied by intonation or irony, but in written form the use of the question mark in English is the indisputable interrogative marker. We would be hesitant to translate statements in English that don't have a question mark as questions into any other language. Likewise with Hebrew, which has an interrogative marker, I'm hesitant to translate any statement as a question into English without strong contextual support, particularly if the statement has at least a reasonable declarative meaning, which in this case I'm willing to say that it does.
Do you see my point?
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Post by rich klein on Jun 10, 2015 7:36:15 GMT -6
W. Gunther Plaut in his The Torah, A Modern Commentary V suggests of Deuteronomy 29:3 MT:
"Despite all His labors in your behalf He could not make you appreciate him." More later.
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Post by brianwagner on Jun 10, 2015 8:35:39 GMT -6
I am glad you jumped in Rich! I am still working on this one too! Here is another cross reference to factor in!
Deut 4:34 Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within [another] nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes? 35To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
These verses make it sound like God was trying to give them an understanding heart, and perhaps even did so, since it was said at the Red Sea -
Ex 14:21 - When Israel saw the great power which the LORD had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in His servant Moses.
So I am still leaning towards the rhetorical question solution - "Have I not given you an understanding heart?" :-)
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Post by rich Klein on Jun 10, 2015 14:21:15 GMT -6
"With this complaint, Moses does not intend to excuse the previous want of susceptibility on the part of the nation to the manifestations of grace on the part of the Lord, but simply to explain the necessity for the repeated allusion to the gracious acts of God, and to urge the people to lay them truly to the heart. “By reproving the dulness of the past, he would stimulate them to a desire to understand: just as if he had said, that for a long time they had been insensible to so many miracles, and therefore they ought not to delay any longer, but to arouse themselves to hearken better unto God” (Calvin). The Lord had not yet given the people an understanding heart, because the people had not yet asked for it, simply because the need of it was not felt." K. and D.
More later.
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Post by brianwagner on Jun 11, 2015 10:32:28 GMT -6
Does the context allow for an assumed idea here to support your idea of complaint Rich? "I could not give you an understanding heart because of your dullness or because you did not ask for it, therefore I did not give you an understanding heart." Does Moses (God) speak in such a way in other passages to voice complaints without stating why he is complaining, or without commanding a remedy, thus assuming they would know why and what to do? I would love some cross references to show this similar rhetorical style.
And wouldn't those whose theology is monergistic have difficulty with this statement, since it would seem to indicate that none of the "elect" in Israel had been enlightened up to that point (Caleb?, Joshua?). And for that position, the prerequisite of asking for enlightenment would be unnecessary. The statement, as in all translations, is very succinct - "Yet the LORD has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day." I still think making it a rhetorical question resolves the contextual, theological difficulties the best! :-)
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Post by brianwagner on Jan 2, 2017 21:30:53 GMT -6
I wanted to fan the flames of this discussion.
The Message paraphrase gives the suggestion “not until now” has God done this work of spiritual enlightenment. Many commentators connect this verse with the judicial hardening of Israel mentioned in Jesus' words or by Paul (cf. Rom 11:8). But the local context in Deut 29 just does not seem to fit. This is the moment when Moses is going to ask Israel to reaffirm the covenant. Why say such a thing about God's lack of grace in their lives? And then, maybe it is God Himself speaking - see the change in pronouns in verses 5-6. But why would He say such a thing about His lack of graciousness towards them?
The "until this day" phrase is a monkey wrench in the whole matter, for maybe this verse is an editorial comment by a future prophetic author, like Joshua during the time of the Judges, or Hilkiah during the revival of Josiah, or Ezra during the revival of the returnees, reworking Deuteronomy for a new generation of Israel. This phrase “until this day” is found also in Deut. 2:22, 3:14, 10:8, 11:4, and 34:6 and appears to point to editorial comments in those contexts.
So what do you think?
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Post by CowboysDad on Jan 6, 2017 0:08:24 GMT -6
I wanted to fan the flames of this discussion. Well, I bit. Spent some time on it again tonight. |
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