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Post by richardklein on Apr 18, 2016 15:10:39 GMT -6
Someone recently asked me to tell them what I thought the "church" here in Matthew 16:18 was. Feedback please.
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Post by brianwagner on Apr 18, 2016 21:35:19 GMT -6
My view is that Jesus is talking about His body, the church, that began at Pentecost when the baptizing of believers into that body began by the Holy Spirit. And it is continuing to be added to until Jesus finishes building it when He returns for it to join Him in the air at the event commonly called the Rapture.
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Post by samuel on Apr 19, 2016 6:26:17 GMT -6
I recently saw comment made by someone, believing the Church began with the disciples, and the Apostles who followed Jesus. This however!, I do not concur with.
The Church did not begin, until the Holy Spirit came on the day of Pentecost. And as stated will continue until the Lord completes it, and returns for his Church. At what exact point in time, remains debatable.
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Post by CowboysDad on Apr 19, 2016 8:33:13 GMT -6
Quick observations: 1) Jesus will build it on "this rock." 2) Jesus will build it in the future ("I will build"). 3) The strength of hell cannot prevail against it. 4) Jesus flips back and forth between the usage of "kingdom" and the usage of "church" (in the immediate context and also in Matthew 18:1,17). 5) It is a term used of Israel (Acts 7:38). 6) It is a term used of Christian believers (Acts 2:47), following Pentecost. 7) It is a term used of non-religious citizenry (Acts 19:39). 8) It means, of course, a "called out" assembly. 9) Jesus begins using the term with his disciples shortly before his public ministry comes to a close, suggesting that he is preparing to build a "called out" assembly of believers distinct from those who have rejected him and who would furthermore reject his disciples (Matt. 16:21, 24).
Conclusion: It is that group of soon-to-be "called out" believers subsequent to the events of Pentecost who will form an assembly of faith in response to the rejection of their Messiah by the Jewish religious leaders.
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Post by brianwagner on Apr 19, 2016 12:50:55 GMT -6
Alright Daniel - So are you saying the church Jesus promises to build gets built before Pentecost in your view and then added to it at Pentecost? If so, in your view, how does the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit figure into forming the body of Christ, which is the church, which baptizing work He didn't start until Pentecost? Thanks.
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Post by CowboysDad on Apr 19, 2016 16:06:09 GMT -6
I recently shared a meal with a pastor and president of a small seminary who defined the church as "that group of believers who were baptized with John's baptism." Like the individual to whom Samuel refers, this pastor believes that the church began here in Matthew 16:18. He also denies that the church was formed by the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit, which was quite remarkable to me. I had never met a pastor who held that position. When I asked how he understands Acts 19:3, which describes the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit upon those who had previously been baptized only with John's baptism, he responded, "No one has ever asked me that question before." Later we renewed the discussion of the matter after he referred to some notes from one of his professors and he began to read the reasons for his view--none of which I found compelling. The distinctive of the church is clearly the baptizing and indwelling work of the Holy Spirit. I do not understand how others can read passages like 1 Corinthians 12:13 and subsequently define the church as this pastor did. The church begins at Pentecost for that is when the baptizing and indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit seems to be clearly inaugurated. I cannot find any weighty evidence for the beginning of the church before Pentecost though some will point to John 20:22, though even that is subsequent to Matthew 16:18. You, Samuel and I seem to be saying the same things despite the wording in my last post which has left you with some doubt. Perhaps some might attempt to argue from Ephesians 2:20 that Jesus built the church (or at least the foundation of the church) upon his disciples before Pentecost, but that is not compelling for me. In some sense Jesus did build into the lives of the apostles even before Pentecost, which I would happily concede, but he had been doing that long before Matthew 16:18, but most don't see the church as in existence from the calling of the disciples in Matthew 10. No, we are saying the same thing. Jesus uses the term for church WITH his disciples, but not yet OF his disciples.
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Post by Rich Klein on Apr 20, 2016 9:53:42 GMT -6
"Jesus, however, implies nothing here of any particular church structure or government; He merely promises that He will establish a gathered community of His followers and help them to grow." Craig L. Blomberg The New American Commentary Volume 22 "Matthew" Page 253
For those folks who like a nice tight dispensational fit, then if the church is here in any form, shape, or matter, this provides one more leak in traditional dispensationalism.
I have never believed the "church" was here. A "congregation" (as in the Wilderness), but not the "church."
For fun, read fifty-two sources on the verse noting the left, right, and center of the interpretations offered. No one created a "leak" in my thinking. Try the same-read fifty-two sources:)
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Post by CowboysDad on Apr 21, 2016 9:49:08 GMT -6
Are we saying anything different?
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