dean
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Post by dean on Feb 24, 2015 9:43:17 GMT -6
Living in Alabama, we are the hot topic of discussion across the nations right now as it pertains to the rule of worldly Law and Biblical stance regarding Homosexuality.
I'm firmly rooted in what I believe regarding Homosexual acts, lifestyles, etc... I'm curious though, to what end do I/we as believers bow to the rule of worldly law as it pertains to homosexuality?
When it comes to worldly laws being created to legislate morality - is this the way to go? Does this actually do more harm for Christianity than good?
What should my/our stance be if the opportunity arises to vote a worldly law into place that would "prohibit" the act? I have more friends that are of the Homosexual lifestyle than I ever dreamed I would have! Some folks in the family have begun dabbling into the lifestyle, and while my stance will always remain that this act is wrong - as wrong as a man cheating on his wife--- my curious nature wonders what is my responsibility as it pertains to the rule of worldly law and this subject.
Look forwarding to reading any and all thoughts - obviously I don't have it concreted yet, so I'm open to hearing what everyone thinks/believes/etc.
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Post by CowboysDad on Feb 24, 2015 12:29:12 GMT -6
Well, I'm relieved that your first post was at least an easy one! Ha! I'll have to come back later and throw around some thoughts. Take care, Daniel
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dean
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Post by dean on Feb 24, 2015 12:52:31 GMT -6
Haha! I figured if anyone would have some thoughts on this - my ole mentor would Take care and I look forward to reading your thoughts on this!
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Post by brianwagner on Feb 24, 2015 14:01:13 GMT -6
Great topic Dean, and an important one! Thanks for posting it. My first thoughts are that we should always use our freedoms to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves in promoting righteousness for the glory of God, the building up of the body, and the salvation of the lost. We have the freedom to vote, and in my view all laws are an expression of legislating morality, though the OT shows that God did not give legislation against all social ills (e.g. polygamy).
I personally think that homosexuality is a sin similar to drunkenness. I appreciate greatly that you mentioned adultery in the same context, because I believe all sexual sin is an attack directly or indirectly against the sanctity of marriage. But homosexuality is like drunkenness because society has condoned it (as long as you do not hurt anyone else) and even enjoys the entertainment of it (much like we enjoy violence). But like a drunk, the homosexual believes he does not have a problem and was even born with that predilection that he believes is irreversible. As believers, though we would seek legislation to curb the abuses of alcoholism, I believe we must love the alcoholics in our lives. Same with professed homosexuals!
The promotion of God's clear design of marriage as between a male and a female (Matt. 19:5) should be our greater focus and the world will know what we are against by hearing us talk more about what we are for. We also need to be willing to suffer for holding and professing our intolerant views, but prayer instead of public protest, in my view, is the biblical way of being salt and light in this matter.
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dean
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Post by dean on Feb 25, 2015 8:59:44 GMT -6
Thanks for the response Brian: I'm interested to hear more on your reason for lumping Homosexuality with drunkenness. I think without much research we can with fair certainty say that adultery is more widely accepted today than was even 10 years ago. Do you reckon we cheapen the "Strength" of biblical condemnation or disapproval of Homosexuality by equating it with drunkenness instead of sexual sin? I'm just curious and chasing all the venues as they arise I completely agree that our steadfastness in promoting/proclaiming God's clear design is the way we go... Still, to some degree I wonder - if we pursue worldly/government legislation to legislate morality in people, force them to do ..... will it bring more harm to our reach of them, to our testimony before them? In everything I can think of - Jesus told the absolute way for folks to go, but did not "make" them. To what end are we hiding behind the Government law/legislation instead of doing as we are supposed to do in the first place - --- live, breath, preach the Gospel even unto death? Have we as a "Christian" culture bought into the notion that we can change nothing without Government involvement - laws - decrees, etc.. And if we have bought into this, has it allowed us a cushion of sorts to hunker down and remain quiet without revealing our identity? What is the balance? Is there one? I have youth in my group - they are either practicing Homosexuals - Bi-sexuals - or Bi-curious, etc. I love them, I would do as much if not more for them as I would any other kid in my group. While I do not compromise the gospel at all - I often wonder what is the balance? How much are we to rely on the Government, how forceful are we to be? etc. Thanks for allowing me to rant a little - this is a topic that has been on my mind for years and I find myself endlessly wondering about these things.... Feels good to discuss!
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Post by brianwagner on Feb 25, 2015 12:56:53 GMT -6
I'll be praying for you as you serve on the front lines! I liken the two sins to each other, not only because of their common addictive natures and the blame for them put on genetics (though there is probably a genetic predilection for all our sins), but because I think it helps defuse for me at least the typical aversion one has in trying to help homosexuals, and to be longsuffering with their self-deception.
And in my opinion, we do focus too much energy on political solutions for moral issues and not enough on prayer for God's intervention!
I am glad you have joined this forum, Dean. It is certainly to be a place to co-labor together in encouragement. I could tell by your beard that you're a youth leader! :-)
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Post by Scott Stj on Feb 26, 2015 0:25:09 GMT -6
Hello Dean, I'm not a pastor, just a close friend of your “ole mentor” who graciously invited me to participate knowing that this is a topic that has been on my heart (so pardon me if I go off the deep end a bit! ). I appreciate your loving attitude and hope that my comments will at least provoke some thought. Like you, I fear that our actions as Christians with regard to homosexuality, well intended as they may be, often do more harm than good. I try to remember that Jesus didn't call us to go forth into the world and get lost people to live as morally as possible (although I think Satan often tricks us into doing just that under the guise of “standing up for what’s right”). I think we need to seriously (and prayerfully) examine how we interact with our culture, why we’re doing what we’re doing and what we’re hoping to accomplish. Are our actions really promoting the cause of Christ or could they be driving people away? To put things in perspective, think about us in heaven someday – will we feel a sense of accomplishment because we successfully stopped gays from marrying in this world before they were cast into hell? Is that the battle God put us here to fight? That’s troubling to me. What are the political battles we’re engaged in right now going to accomplish for God’s kingdom? Is anyone on the other side of the battle closer to Christ if we win? I think it’s just the opposite. In the secular culture we live in today, our actions are seen as being no different than Muslims trying to impose their own Sharia law on everyone else. We’d certainly be antagonistic toward that and see that as intolerant so it should come as no surprise that the world sees us in that way. And I wonder, what is the fundamental motivation behind these political fights? Is it our love for the sinner and our earnest desire to see him come to faith in Christ? Or are we instead unwittingly fighting to maintain for ourselves a culture in which we as Christians can comfortably live and raise our families? Are we doing all this for US at their expense? I would hate to think so. So what do I think our role as Christians should be? Certainly we can proclaim God’s truth, how God intended us to live (including what God intended for marriage) and most importantly, the salvation that’s available in Christ but we should also recognize that God allows us all to choose how we live and I don’t think forcing people to live OUR way is an effective means of evangelism nor do I think that’s what the Bible calls us to do. Okay, I’ve probably said way more than I should. Hope y’all don’t think I’m too much of a heretic! Brian – I appreciate your comments also and totally agree that we need more prayer for God’s intervention!
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dean
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Post by dean on Feb 26, 2015 8:55:17 GMT -6
Great feedback from you guys! I appreciate the time and thoughtfulness put into your Answers! Yes Brian, I am a youth Pastor - for 20 years now. I have found since my time in the backwoods of Louisiana where we were brought up that tradition was right next to if not above religion, the my stance over the past 20 years on many things have changed. Scott: I appreciate your words too, I have spent the last several years thinking of this subject off and on. More recently, as my youth group has grown and become extremely more diverse and wide reaching, I have found myself thinking even more on this topic. This I know, the truth must always be told, lived and revered. I know we have a choice how we handle the truth - be it with a mean spirit or a sarcastic attitude or a loving gentle voice that is yet firm and unwaivering in it's foundation. These kids I deal with, they have so many things thrown at them at a very young age, so much stuff from home and from TV and School and their other friends... For 1.5 hours each week - I get them, I get to invest and pour into them all that I have and all that I am through Jesus. The world gets them the rest of this time and thus makes me wonder, am I doing all that I am doing as smartly as I can? My brain goes through so many rabbit trails haha -- these kiddos are very big on the present Government, they like our President and all that he stands for - well, at least the part of him that is very cozy with the lifestyle of Homosexuality, etc. It's an interesting place I find myself - so, as it should always be - I simply revert back to teaching the truth regardless - the gospel - in love of course.
Thanks again for your comments - please share more if you have time and can think of more down the road.
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Post by smed777 on Mar 1, 2015 13:14:33 GMT -6
This really hits home for me because my nephew is living a homosexual lifestyle. Even though I don't agree with his lifestyle I love him and always will. My Daughter and him are and have always been very close. We have talked about this at great lengths all the time just referring to the bible and what God says about all sexual immorality and living in Rebelion from God and all the pitfalls from doing so. When finally asked would you let a gay couple into my church I said for sure and with open arms. I told them if we locked the church from all sinners it would be just an empty building. I had really strugled with not speaking out on Facebook and other social media about what the bible says about Sexual sin and confronting people about being forced to accept something I don't think is correct. As I was studying Phillipians this hit me like a ton of bricks. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Not other people salvation but your own. Love them in truth stand on the word vote your conscience!
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Post by brianwagner on Mar 1, 2015 15:49:53 GMT -6
Smedd777 - When you said "into my church" I expect you meant welcomed to visit or was it to join membership? This is what I find as the biggest dilemma! How do we help homosexual seekers feel welcome, no matter their blindness, while they seek?! Then comes the needed wisdom on how to respond to open displays of affection that are inappropriate by those who homosexual seekers. Any thoughts?
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Post by CowboysDad on Mar 4, 2015 0:33:03 GMT -6
Dean, I'm a bit back on my feet after a family emergency and a week of sickness. Feels good to be writing again. My thoughts in response to your post might come in drips and drabs over the next few weeks as I pray about them. Here's my first reaction.
I loved my kids when I was a youth pastor for those many years. I was always so burdened for them. I hope they sensed it. I wanted them to know how much I cared even if I could never be the the cool youth guy with catchy lessons, funny jokes and a good jump shot. When they were in sin the burden I had seemed to increase a hundredfold. I know now why prophets like Nahum and Habakkuk called their prophecies burdens. Always be burdened for the sins of your youth. We must never see their sin as a barrier to our relationship with them, but rather as a call to more urgency in our burden for them--whatever the sin. As a pastor I've known Christian men and women who were living together, for example, and attending church. Our most natural reaction is, "That can't be! They must understand that this can't go on. They must be confronted." Certainly! Without a doubt sin unchecked in our churches cannot be ignored. But too often we aren't truly burdened for the sinner. We are locked in on our duty to confront and on restoring our church to a moral equilibrium, and we lose sight of the damage that the sin is doing to the individual's relationship with the Lord. Whether the sin is fornication or homosexuality, whether the individual is a Christian or an unbeliever, whether they are young in the faith or mature in the faith, they must see that we are burdened for them; that we care for them; that we ache for them. They must know that we are deeply grieved over their sin. They might think we are nuts for being burdened about their lifestyle when they think nothing of it and perhaps don't consider it a sin, but when showing others God's Word, as I did recently in showing one man 1 Thes. 4:3, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality" they should also hear our burden for them. Perhaps the greatest missing ingredient in the entire debate on sexual sin is love. The sinner does not believe that he is loved by the church. We must never make that mistake. We have visions of Nathan and John the Baptizer pointing their fingers at the chest of kings and declaring, "You are the man" and "It is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife," but these snapshot stories that look like hand grenade confrontations may have been accompanied by deeper relationships. Paul wrote too, "For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote to you, with many tears, not that you should be grieved, but that you might know the love which I have so abundantly for you" (2 Cor. 2:4). May our confrontations armed with the truth of Scripture likewise drip with tears and love! We must declare without compromise the truths of Scripture, but may there never be any occasion for doubt in the mind and heart of the sinner that we ache for them and that God aches for them.
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Post by stjernss on Mar 8, 2015 19:11:00 GMT -6
CowboysDad - I think you're absolutely right that our message to the sinner has to be based on love and that has to be clearly seen by him. Unfortunately, in the case of homosexuality, I wonder if we often treat the sinner differently from those engaged in other sexual sin (perhaps because homosexual immorality, unlike other sin, scares and repulses us). For example, why is it that when people are engaging in homosexual sex, that somehow constitutes a "lifestyle" but when people engage in immoral heterosexual sex, it's just sin and we don't make it out to be anything more than that? Do we mean to imply that homosexual sin is something bigger (and thus worse) than other sexual sins? Should we not think of the gay couple in the exact same way that we think of the unmarried heterosexual couple who's engaging in sex (just as you implied above)? Plus, there are homosexuals out there who are extremely promiscuous, there are some who've been with the same partner for many years and there are some who rarely, if ever, engage in sex, there are sexual predators. There are a wide variety of behaviors just as there are a wide variety of immoral behaviors in the heterosexual world. So what exactly is the "homosexual lifestyle" we're talking about? Child molesting? A different partner every night? How does the world know what we mean when we refer to that? So I'm struggling with how we've come to lump all homosexuals - stereotype them - together, which can be perceived as attributing the worst aspects to them all. Perhaps I'm making too big a deal over this. Just trying to look at things from a different perspective and perhaps get us to think in a different way how the world might interpret our message. I'm certainly open to being corrected (lovingly!!!). I appreciate and am encouraged by everyone's loving, sensitive and thoughtful attitude on this subject.
I need to think some more about the displays of affection question. That's an interesting one.
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Post by CowboysDad on Mar 8, 2015 23:54:41 GMT -6
Second thought: Perhaps we should back up to the very beginning. All legislation, whether proposed by Christians or non-Christians, is a byproduct of one's morality or worldview. We legislate against or in favor of what we believe is right or at least what we believe is helpful to society. But should Christians legislate our view of morality? That’s a good question. Should we require conformity to morality even if there is no heart transformation? Clearly I would agree that the gospel alone can transform hearts. But should we require conformity to morality before the gospel has transformed the heart of unbelievers? Perhaps we must answer this more global question before we can even take up the question of legislation against any one particular sin, but I don't know any Christians who would consider it unwise to legislate against murder, for example. If you and I lived in a society that did not have any existing laws, would we create any laws at all? Would we establish any binding code of morality over non-Christians? Would we say, “You shall not murder,” even if we knew that such a law would affect non-Christians? If so, then we are acknowledging that it is acceptable to require conformity to morality even where there is no heart transformation. At first it might seem too that everyone could agree to legislate against murder, but even the question of murder is quite complicated. Do we believe as Christians that taking the life of the unborn is murder? Certainly! But not everyone does! Should we then as Christians refuse to lobby for the unborn and for the overturning of Roe v. Wade on the grounds that we should not require the unbeliever to conform to morality? I understand that being pro-life might hamper my ability to witness to someone who is pro-choice, but as long as I display a burdened and loving spirit for those with whom I may disagree on this matter, should I not feel free to legislate morality to preserve the life of the unborn? Or must I never impose any morality on others? Can we all agree that legislation should rightly be used at times to force morality upon others? Regardless of where the conversation may take us from here, can we at least agree on that point?
Sidenote: Regarding my usage of the word "lifestyle,' I think I would just as routinely refer to a heterosexual lifestyle as to a homosexual lifestyle in any attempt at defining global categories. Clearly there are behaviors within a heterosexual lifestyle that are sinful as well.
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Post by Dr Rich Klein on Mar 9, 2015 9:09:33 GMT -6
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Post by brianwagner on Mar 9, 2015 9:50:35 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing that presentation link, Brother Rich! It was a blessing to hear the challenge of truth-in-love and to see the example of the believer's effective testimony of it in the end. I still wonder when love has to say "no"! "No, I don't think you're qualified to be or should be called a pastor because you condone homosexuality." "No, you can't be a member of our church yet, because you are not yet willing to repent of your sin as evidenced in your homosexual behavior(and that would also be true of heterosexuals living together)." And "No, I cannot attend your homosexual 'wedding' because it grieves me that you continue to reject Jesus' salvation from your sin." Those challenges on HOW to show love still exist, especially when and how to say "No" when appropriate, and I wish the speaker would have addressed those challenges more concretely.
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